Discuss - KunstlerCast #116: Deep Water Horizon

[Duncan]

KunstlerCast #116: Deep Water Horizon
Oil Spill Adds to the Converging Crises

Released: June 17, 2010

JHK examines the tragic oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico and the fog of incomplete information that surrounds it. Kunstler sees this incident as further proof that the peak oil story is real. Now that the low hanging fruit of our oil resources has been plucked, the paradigms of our car-dependent society are forcing us to drill under difficult conditions that are hard to control. The return of $4 gallons of gasoline is not far around the next corner and the trauma from this event is already provoking strange emotional outbursts and pockets of denial from the public who do not want to get off the path of Happy Motoring. JHK also believes that the escalating and increasing failures of liberal democracy in the U.S. are getting to the point where American people don't trust the government to be competent anymore. Ecological disasters are amplifying economic disasters, which are feeding a political disaster. In the end, this event may accelerate the process of America rethinking how its living and whether in fact maybe what we're doing is insane, especially this campaign to sustain the unsustainable which is underway.

Direct Download:
KunstlerCast_116.mp3
(21 MB | 32:50 mins.)

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Support for the KunstlerCast comes from Post Carbon Institute, the world's leading think tank dedicated to getting society off fossil fuels fast. PCI is proud to have James Howard Kunstler as a valued advisor--joining Richard Heinberg, Bill McKibben, Majora Carter, Rob Hopkins and 25 other Fellows in leading the transition to a more resilient world. Learn more at http://PostCarbon.org.

[RVideo]

Five star podcast.  Although I personally disagree with Jim's feelings on using a nuclear device as a solution (it's probably the only solution to this problem), the remaining 96% of the podcast was very enjoyable.

Thanks for dedicating at least one podcast to this tragic topic.

[mjcrites]

You can find the most frightening things on Face Book. And no, I don't know her.

[skymetalsmith]

I got this from Boycott BP FACEBOOK page.

[WKB]

I was disturbed by Duncan's lack of empathy for the people and creatures of the Gulf. You've got to be pretty hard-hearted to feel less emotion about a topic than James Howard Kunstler.

I am a long-time, devoted listener to the podcast, and I too hold out hope that we can salvage something good from this horror show if it changes the way we live our lives and helps us get a decent energy bill passed. But I'm not so cynical as to seize on it as an opportunity while shrugging off the mass death of "the animals."

Look at the pictures, Duncan.

(And thanks for bringing us this podcast every week.)

[Duncan]

I was disturbed by Duncan's lack of empathy for the people and creatures of the Gulf. You've got to be pretty hard-hearted to feel less emotion about a topic than James Howard Kunstler.

1) Do you think these animals give a fuck about your so-called empathy?

2) How do looking at these pictures on the Internet make you a better person? Ya driving less? Eating more local food? Vacationing in your backyard? What? I'd like to know.

I live in a small city. I drive twice a month (ironically one of those trips is to record with JHK). I buy locally-grown food at the two farmers markets within 50 yards of my home. I ride my bike up to my canoe when I want to camp or "experience nature." I don't drive hundreds of miles to vacation...anywhere. Etc. Etc.

I'm pretty sure--if they were capable of understanding-- the animals would appreciate those actions more than your looking at them on the Internet and feeling "empathy."

(Humanity is screwed.)

[gypsychimp]

The disaster in the gulf might just be a mercy killing of a dying ecosystem.  You don't need to have a deep water oil well blowout to see the tragic consequences of human activity on the worlds oceans.

"The widely dispersed petroleum is a great disaster, but I get the distinct impression that this oil is seen as despoiling a pristine environment. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have this impression because, to my knowledge, the sorry state of the Gulf of Mexico before the oil spill is not being discussed. Before the oil spill, the Gulf of Mexico was being ravaged by—

(anthropogenic)

    * coastal erosion
    * hypoxia (very low oxygen)
    * harmful algal blooms (red tides)

...Is this brief presentation meant to detract from the awfulness of the oil spill? Not at all. I merely wish to point out that the oil spill is a case of piling on—we made a bad situation much, much worse. Many species in the Gulf were already under severe pressure before the blow-out...."

http://www.declineoftheempire.com/2010/05/the-gulf-of-mexico-before-the-oil-spill.html

...and to wax provocatively, I wonder if the 20 billion BP set aside could be spent on an ocean ecosystem though COULD be saved?  Cause the gulf is f*cked.   

[WKB]

1) Do you think these animals give a fuck about your so-called empathy?

2) How do looking at these pictures on the Internet make you a better person? Ya driving less? Eating more local food? Vacationing in your backyard? What? I'd like to know.

I live in a small city. I drive twice a month (ironically one of those trips is to record with JHK). I buy locally-grown food at the two farmers markets within 50 yards of my home. I ride my bike up to my canoe when I want to camp or "experience nature." I don't drive hundreds of miles to vacation...anywhere. Etc. Etc.

I'm pretty sure--if they were capable of understanding-- the animals would appreciate those actions more than your looking at them on the Internet and feeling "empathy."

(Humanity is screwed.)

Apparently I touched a nerve with this sort of response to a new member of the board. I wasn't impolite and even thanked you for the work you do on the podcast.

Forgive me. You're a saint.

[Cedar]

Did you hear the news report yesterday about BP burning “endangered” sea turtles alive? Horrifying… right? The first question in my mind was… WHY ARE THEY “ENDANGERED”?

I’ll tell you why, it’s either that fishermen kill them in their nets or tourist have infiltrated the sand beaches where they nest. Chemical poison might be another. Were any of those mentioned in the news? I guarantee the turtles trapped in little patches of oil being burnt is a pittance compared to slaughter animals have faced at the hand of man. The news is so fucking bad. People are such fucking evil idiotic hypocrites.

I’m glad Jim K. kept a level head when talking about the spill rather than rambling hysterically like the others. I want to state for the record that I put Kunstler in a whole other category than the likes of crazy Matt.

[XSteelhead]

I was disturbed by Duncan's lack of empathy for the people and creatures of the Gulf. You've got to be pretty hard-hearted to feel less emotion about a topic than James Howard Kunstler.

1) Do you think these animals give a fuck about your so-called empathy?

2) How do looking at these pictures on the Internet make you a better person? Ya driving less? Eating more local food? Vacationing in your backyard? What? I'd like to know.

I live in a small city. I drive twice a month (ironically one of those trips is to record with JHK). I buy locally-grown food at the two farmers markets within 50 yards of my home. I ride my bike up to my canoe when I want to camp or "experience nature." I don't drive hundreds of miles to vacation...anywhere. Etc. Etc.

I'm pretty sure--if they were capable of understanding-- the animals would appreciate those actions more than your looking at them on the Internet and feeling "empathy."

(Humanity is screwed.)

Hi Duncan.  I've been on this board since inception but haven' t posted much over the last year.  You didn't cut the newbie much slack in your response about the animals.  In fact I was shocked enough at the tenor of your reply to log on (couldn't remember my password for a few tries- that's why I am a Steelhead) and 'pen' this comment.  I have great admiration for yourself and Jim, shining small lights of logic in a vast dark universe of apparent human stupidity and apathy week in and week out.  I don't know you personally and I'm sure you get dumped on mightily due to your stances on things (like the guy who freaked out on you over the parking issue in that bar one night) so I can't be too harsh a judge but I hold you to a higher standard of decorum than a 'parking nut'.

[faraway]

I feel empathy for the animals, whether they know it or not.
That in itself is not a bad thing.
Emotion is a powerful motivator, and what many need to spark action.

At the same time, I feel Jim's and Duncan's more pragmatic approach is more helpful and has greater integrity in the long run than emotional gut reactions to events of the moment.

Many habitats and millions of animals have been compromised the world over due to our resource extraction and use.
Focussing on this spill and the animals affected obscures the big picture and highlights many a hypocrisy.

Ironically, hypocrisy and/or a narrow focus often incites strong emotion (anger) in the more pragmatic, big-picture, lets-just-solve-the-problem type person.

For example, these people: http://www.handsacrossthesand.com/

I realize that they may be providing a good service by bringing attention to a particular problem, but their emotional approach chafes me. Try as I might to be charitable towards their 'good intentions', they illicit an emotion in me that I'm sure is one they don't intend.

.... maybe we need both types of people?

[Cedar]

I imagine the only ones truly innocent of hypocrisy are the blatantly selfish… Which gives them the upper hand when ridiculing pretty much everything, especially environmentalist.

Yeah, a purely social gathering for a cause appears the (absolute) LEAST you can do and I always thought these events were orchestrated by bored hens who desperately want to be loved for being kind and caring. But, I’m thinking… could rallies like this be the early formation of the naturalist religion I so oft talk?

[Hedgehog]

Hi

I Just wanted to say that BP is no longer called British Petroleum, and hasn't been for several years. It merged with Amoco in 1999 (according to Wikipedia) and then changed its name.

I think what I really want though is to avoid the British being blamed for BP. It's a multinational corporation. Not that the British are blameless. Everyone has to take some blame for this, if we buy things made from oil, or ride around in oil powered vehicles.

[Hedgehog]

Apparently I touched a nerve with this sort of response to a new member of the board. I wasn't impolite and even thanked you for the work you do on the podcast.

Forgive me. You're a saint.

I can see why there was a misunderstanding, Duncan didn't say he didn't care, he just said it is not the first and only example of animal suffering as a result of human activity. (Well, those are my words). So you have to judge it in that context. You don't have to look much further than the food industry to find animal suffering.

[faraway]

Here is another example from the Sierra Club (of which I used to be a member long ago when they made some sort of sense).

http://action.sierraclub.org/site/PageServer?pagename=adv_oilspill_flag&autologin=true

I guess it's a good goal to "get off of oil" but there is no indication of how to do that other than to "plant a flag" in Washington DC and tell Obama "we need a plan to get us off oil in twenty years".

Hey Sierra Club, why don't YOU propose a plan? One that has a chance of working, not some pie-in-the-sky emotionalism to garner more hits on your website and rake in money off of the BP spectacle?